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Product details File Size: November 8, Sold by: Share your thoughts with other customers. Write a customer review. Amazon Giveaway allows you to run promotional giveaways in order to create buzz, reward your audience, and attract new followers and customers. Learn more about Amazon Giveaway. Ich darf das, ich bin Jude German Edition. Set up a giveaway. There's a problem loading this menu right now. Learn more about Amazon Prime. But perhaps you make it a point not to argue with people to leave them within their for black people painful disobservance don't know if this exists, sorry, but That's what PC is for.

Why shouldn't we make that clear? And of course, THEY, the discriminated parts of societies, say WHAT that is, that causes fear, pain and other negative feelings and make them feel discriminated. Why not make this effort? I personally don't think it's okay to use 'Neger' but honestly. Today I'm not in the mood to discuss.

One has to take a break with such discussions sometimes. But Blo Rakane said some things, I'll come back to probably if not anyone else hits the points, or already did didn't read the answers too carefully so far, will to that at some point later. Comment Susanna, it is certainly true that this discussion has moved on from Rashunda's personal experience, but I agree with Rotznase that her reaction still is relevant. Rashunda's experience stands for many people's experiences. In fact, I fail to see how a discussion on PC can exist without taking into account such reactions as Rashunda's.

Any attempt to define PC either 1 takes into account what people actually have found offensive, or 2 disregards such feelings and, in effect, tells minorities and others what they should feel when they hear certain words. This is not to say that PC can never take on exaggerated forms, but it continues to beg the question whether we, who continue to engage in PC-type discussions, aren't faced with a dangerous threshold of which existence we ought to keep aware at all times.

Folks, this is a very crucial point. Thus, while Rashunda's remarks may not actually end the debate, those remarks remain highly relevant. Comment Oliver, I'm very glad that you participate in the discussion again. There's something I really would like to ask but I see a huge potential to be misinterpreted and misunderstood again. I deeply hope this will not happen. Do you regard it as possible that Rashunda had THIS impression of exactly THIS discussion which happened Please no general things as I don't doubt this disregard of feelings in other places or as a general experiance of discriminated groups at all.

Perhaps as well then not thoroughgoing enough to possibly disagree with YOUR you were the leading person in this direction as you pointed this out first impression? Do you know what I mean? Do you regard that as possible? It is a bit difficult to point out what I mean, but I tried my very best to make it clear. I don't know if it worked. I tried to analize the course of the discussion in the thread beforehand already when talking to Rashunda, do you remember with the focus on that point which I considered as the crucial point where the misunderstanding got worse.

Don't know if I really was able to make clear where I liked to head with it but I was glad to see that she then obviously didn't took this awfully negative impression with her and will thus perhaps participate again somewhere in Leo, which would be nice. Comment Third, as well, I think there are situations where a statement of general accuracy is made and in addition hits delicate points and recalls painful experiances and suddenly those who hits this close consider it as true, but still there can be a misunderstanding and it can be huge and many then might not be able to see it clearly anymore as so much feelings are involved.

Oh well, it's quite complex and I don't know if I was able to express it clearly. But, do you know these effects? May it be as it may be, it was doubtlessly a discussion with a huge, huge, huge potential of misunderstanding and some may have not done their best to avoid that, that's perhaps the case with me as well.


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On the other hand some might not have done there best to avoid to misinterpret others simply by the means of asking. Both sides therefore may have run the risk to negligently hurt feelings. Both those who weren't careful enough and those who insinuated things like they were hard facts. On the other side this is exactly the point I consider as the exaggerating point of PC. You know the people who negligently misinterpret may support such an exaggeration and this may than make an important thing like PC annoying at all to some people. The effect is then that this goes to the disadvantage of minorities and best intentions then may cause the opposite effect.

Please consider that English is not my mother tounge and difficult subjects get even more difficult then. I appreciate very much practicing pointing out complex thoughts in a different language. But please ask before insinuating things. I will be very happy to answer honestly and to have the chance to clarify if need be. Comment Susanna, I agree that misunderstandings can arise from any of the reasons you just quoted--and likely from many more. Particularly this late in the discussion I have trouble even trying to pinpoint from where various misunderstandings might have arisen.

In fact, none of us know 1 whether Rashunda had any misunderstandings concerning the original remarks the boys made, 2 what her actual misunderstanding with this thread was, 3 whether there was a misunderstanding on her part, concerning this thread, and 4 what her motivations that led to misunderstanding might have been. None of that, however, takes away validity from your point. Thus, of course Rashunda might have disagreed with my point of view if she had understood all of the German-language contributions. Let me also say that I was not exerted to speak "for" Rashunda. I was trying to make a point quite independently from her.

As it is, she and I may or may not agree--notwithstanding the quote from her Rotznase used a bit earlier. If you reread my earlier posts, particularly at the very beginning, I think you might see that I said so. Of course, my debate opponents may have misunderstood that. Comment As someone asked for, I try to do it in English. One of my first points in the parent thread was that much of this PC thing is used for blaming others to be incorrect which is factually wrong, in most cases. Some of the posters here are doing exactly that, instead of reflecting about arguments.

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What I meant are characteristics of physical appearance. I agree in that the biological term 'race' has no meaning in the sense of psychological qualities or culture. Nevertheless, thinking about a certain race or ethnic group reminds to cultural aspects as well. I don't see any negative thing in that. Bavarians are known to be either farmers or hunters, wear short leather trousers, dance the 'Schuhplattler' and yodel all the day.

Well, I am Bavarian, but I and most of us work in modern jobs, do not own leather trousers and can neither schuhplattle nor yodel at all. However, it's a part of Bavarian culture and it's nothing to say against it. That's a good thing because only fanatics would support some concept of pure-bloodedness. I might have misunderstood you but: Of course there is some thing as 'race'. Ignoring that because of the threat of racists compares with ignoring atoms because of the threat of the atomic bomb. You obviously didn't recognize the particular situation I described in point 1 of my recent post.

It was about a situation personally confronted with someone who doesn't like to be addressed as a 'Neger'. Besides, in such situation, there would hardly be any reason to address him as 'Neger', 'Schwarzer', or 'Farbiger' anyway. In my further points, I tried to get a little deeper into some of the superficialties and sanctimonies of this political correctness thing which, sadly, you preferred to ignore.

You pointed out that 'dangerous threshold of which existence we ought to keep aware at all times'. We all do not wish certain times to come again. But what has that to do with calling things with their names? An actual, express motivation--to tell the Rashundas of the world how they are supposed to see things--is not necessarily and not always present. Subconscious actions can be very powerful. In other words, even well-meant actions can be perceived as condescending.

When a bunch of, presumably, white people tell a non-white that she "surely" misunderstood whatever the comment at issue is--and if you go over this thread again, you will find such comments--then that begs the question: Finally, lest I be misunderstood again, none of this is to say that there aren't ways and some participants certainly did so to point out to a non-native speaker that there are POSSIBLE alternate interpretations.

However, we should never forget that there is but a narrow and difficult threshold between analyzing the alleged offensive remark and becoming overbearing, or condescending, or otherwise in some way assume the power to actually determine what should or should not be offensive. As a rule, the best judge of that remains the person who received the offensive communication. We probably all agree on that. Comment Blo Rakane, as to your question regarding my "dangerous threshold" comment, I believe that my latest post aimed at Susanna's questions ought to clarify that.

Apparently our postings got crossed. Comment Blo Rakane in his first posting: Blo Rakane, I know you directed this to Gary. But let me say, I think you didn't get what Gary want to say with his example: If, like you said, Afro-American would have been written on the fountains, then this expression would nowadays still cause stomach achings with people of colour.

And this reveals how respectful and what a good thing a reasonable kind of PC is and NOT the other way round. Both as a fact make PC a very reasonable thing! Imagine you were beaten all your life because others considered you and your family as, lets say, too tall. You were beaten because others had prejudgements and fears of tall people. Imagine the perversion goes on and you weren't allowed to go into certain places by the smaller majority of people. Imagine there were doors which were definitly closed to tall people. Wouldn't you then more and more feel sad that you are 'tall'.

Wouldn't this word become the central horror in your life? Wouldn't you feel a mix of emotions like fear, sadness, rage, despair and desperation, whenever someone name you a 'tall' one? Do you perhaps now get that this PC discussion is anything else than stupid? And that some might think of this, your statement to be very thoughtless? Comment Susanna Why would there be prejudices against tall people in the first place, unless many tall people had done something, across many generations, that earned them a specific reputation?

Not necessarily all tall people, but many. If not, you didn't get the point I assume. Black people never 'did' anything despite being naive and "sinful naked" when they were turned into slaves by the white ones! The white ones did the very most, over many generations!

And then here facing this rich world with very less chances open to them sometimes, just because of colour. Comment Shorty, one more, PREjudgements has it in itself. The world is full of prejudgements of no reason. Didn't you know that? Slavery existed in virtually all precolonial African societies south of Sahara, and later - when Europeans entered the scene and began to buy slaves - most of the slave-hunting was done by blacks who sold their fellow Africans to the whites.

Today, nearly all slave trading in Africa is done by black people Comment experiEnce, experiEnce, experiEnce. Comment Apart from what N. To try it, as seen above, is simply wrong and IMHO way off the genuine intention of this thread.

Anyway, to me PC is no more than crap. It just covers up the problems, treats the symptoms but does not cure the desease. PC does not and cannot change people. And that is what is needed! In fact, I shall even go so far as to invite you, but you must understand something first: Your fantasy world will be destroyed. The politically correct wool which you are so desperately holding over your own eyes will be torn to shreds.

I wish I could share your beliefs.

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In fact, I did believe everything that you do, when I was younger, at university. Unfortunately, I have seen far too much of reality since then. And although I would like to ignore it, since it is, generally speaking, an ugly thing, I can't. I can't, because I'm living with it and in it every day. Do you really believe that some people have fewer chances because they are not white? The problem is not that you're a fool, Susanna, and I honestly don't think you are. You seem like an intelligent person. The problem is that you cannot understand the situation from where you are!

And it isn't pc for us to tell you about it. BTW, I think you could benefit from a good History book. An impartial one, one without agenda. I don't know where you can find one, but I can assure you, it will be out of print. If I cannot be thanked for my ancestors' many many great accomplishments, if it is politically Incorrect for me to feel the pride about them that I should feel, then I refuse to be held accountable for their transgressions, either. And the present is so bad that some people have even had to invent a way to forbid people talking about it.

It's called 'political correctness. Your message posted while I was still composing mine Not only does PC not cure the disease, it actually makes the disease much worse. It creates an enormous conflict between what we observe and what we are allowed to say. This can lead us to only one thing: Comment Appears that there are a few others out there who see the crucial point about PC.

However, I do not intend to join a discussion about what mistreated people or their ancestors might have contributed to prejudice against them. Would you then propose to replace tall by long, and would you think this would change anything to the behaviour of others or to my pain being tall? Would it make me less tall, in the end? So is that reasonable? Comment Blo Rakane, "Auch wenn ich mich hier oute, mir geht das ganze Gequatsche von political correctness tiereisch auf den Keks.

The problem is actually much larger than PC. The problem is ignorance, in general. I won't comment on changes in German. Here are just three, in English: Using the plural is wrong unless you are talking about many groups of people. But the battle has been lost. But it actually means to kill one in Again, the wrong usage has one. It means to "stand out from the herd", "to be clearly superior". Later it came to mean "obvious". Now it is used incorrectly almost all the time. There are unlimited examples of this nature. People, through ignorance, change the meanings of words, in all languages.

They have always done so and probably always will. Normally I am conservative about language, as you appear to be, although I don't lose any sleep over it. When it comes to possibly hurting the feelings of other people, I'm much more worried about hurting a people than languages. And that is where we clearly differ.

My focus is on how and why someone got insulted, which in fact was TWO words, not one. Now please explain that to the lady who was insulted by a group of year-old Swiss boys. See if it makes her feel better. Tell her that it is the fault of English, or the US, that these boys picked up the phrase in Switzerland and decided to embarrass her. Comment Blo Rakane "Gary: The point is that the area in which I live was as racially divided as South Africa, just a few decades ago. I merely reported to the people here what I saw, as a child.

I was told not to drink at the "colored fountain" by my mother, because those people had "bad germs". I will also tell you that a friend of mine, 30 years old, would be very angry if I referred to him as "colored". He would also hate being called a "Negro", and that word at one time had the same nuetral meaning as "Neger".


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In case you want to know why the subject of race would come up in the first place, we recently had a discussion of a trip he took to South Africa. He said, in his own words, "as a black man I felt very comfortable there. The society has changed radically. Or am I simply using common-sense? What you call "PC" I call simply politeness. And that's a very poor way of respecting people. Abgesehen davon rechtfertigt diese Geschichte kein einziges Verbrechen, das heute von einem Sklavennachfahren begangen wird.

Keiner hat gesagt, wie Rashunda das zu verstehen hat. Alle haben nur ihre Auffassung dargelegt. Es ist ihr gutes Recht, die Dinge so darzustellen, wie sie sie empfunden und in Erinnerung hat. Wer's nicht wissen will, soll nicht fragen. You have NOT understood me. First of all, we don't say "Afro-American of color". I won't write "Negroes in America" or "the Negro-race in American", because it would insult a lot of people who might read this.

If necessity made him continue working for you, he would think you were a jerk. I'm telling you how it IS here. I feel the same way. The point is to do anything possible to stop hurting people NOW. And "Geil Neger" hurt someone. Comment Susanna's example of the world where tall people are being discriminated against made me think that it would be ideal if those tall people then came to feel that there is nothing wrong about being tall, therefore the word tall is not bad at all.

That way they would not be insulted by the word. It's the same with the words "negro", "black", "colo u red" etc. This is not the case. People still experience problems due to their colour, many people are not completely relaxed with the subject of races, even if they are not prejudiced. It is a touchy subject, one is not always sure what will or won't hurt others. That's why I see no other way but to respect the wishes of those concerned. And since I can't ask everybody first, I will have to act in accordance with the language of the society I live in.

Comment Shorty to Susanna: Don't know what Susanna believes, but as someone with university far behind me and living in the US, yes, I "really believe" it. I'm astounded that you don't. I think you could benefit from being painted black, and turned loose to go find an apartment or house in a nice part of town and a high-paying job.

But context is everything, as Susanna recognized in her original post, where she allowed that it could have two meanings, depending on intent. Once again intent and context is everything: Though the dictionary term "Jude" is not derogatory, merely descriptive, the history of past usage makes this a loaded term in Germany. And some terms are completely forbidden in German--if a mathematical proof has several sub-solutions on the way to the grand finale, what do you call the very last one right before the Q.

So this is just a round-about way of saying that German has the same issues with historically and socially loaded terms as English does, they're just a slightly different set due to our differing pasts. In my opinion, ideological conservatives often bring up the term "PC" to ridicule those who use the words objected to as PC, as a way of defending as morally acceptable their practice of being insensitive to minority groups and justifying their discriminatory or racist behavior.

Unfortunately, these reactionary opinion leaders have managed to convince a large part of the public that "PC" is merely a linguistic issue and converted them to their cause, and many people who would now call themselves "anti-PC" in no way could be considered racist, but are unfortunately unaware of the right-wing ideological underpinnings of the word and the campaign to introduce the "PC" concept into the sociopolitical arena as a way of defending right-wing extremism.

Comment Shorty and N. Of course, I didn't experience that in Washington DC it's the contrary to what I've pointed out concerning the chances. But do you think that's the case here, or lets say in Switzerland as well? Sorry but we all talk from different views of experience, don't you think? Does Washington DC then necessarily proove my words wrong for other, and perhaps huge parts of the world as well? History, do you really think white people lacked of arrogance like others before, or at the same time, if you like in history? To be honest, when I sent my quite emotional postings directed at shorty.

I guessed to be considered as naive and a dreamer afterwards perhaps I knew they were not very comprehensive concerning history facts. I do not think blacks were always just victims of the evil whites. But sometimes heart sees better then eyes, don't you think? Look into your heart: Did and DO white people really very often had or have a lack arrogance in history and today? If so, we won't agree anyway on this point, which doesn't mean that I don't respect your points of view.

Sorry but we all talk from Concerning your comments about PC. Please read my statements on it beforehand carefully once again if you like. You will discover that your opposing concerning my view on it just past the points I pointed out on it. Perhaps I couldn't make them clear enough. I tried to make clear that PC is a difficult subject and NOT something which will change peoples minds.

I think you know yourself that a reasonable kind of PC is just necessary Gary made very clear why though it always runs the danger to exaggerate. If you look at my postings you will find that I consider this exaggerating as something dangerous in many points of view, and many of those I couldn't include for sure. But of course it's not a remedy for all kinds of deseases of discrimitation, contrary to that it can make it even worse itself and of course can turn into discrimination the other way round if exaggerated. Sorry that I couldn't make clear that I see this. Comment Sorry, the first paragraph in the second posting is partly a douple posting and should have been deleted.

There is no such thing as "affirmative action" in Europe. You are commenting using your Facebook account. Notify me of new comments via email. Posted on November 20, Leave a comment.

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